I agree with 95% but I disagree that the system doesn't [ever] supply self actualization. While I agree that many people don't fit into that mold, and 90% of people do not fit into the highest echelon of society, that top 10% owe their success in self actualization to the system, and many people who don't make it still give all the credit of their growth to the system. An even better example are people who come from less toradic backgrounds who fully soak up the system and really grow from it. The main reason a system is so important is that human nature is to have a value system based on the environment they are in, and do not possess the capability of doing it alone, or without role models. While I agree that there are many problems with how we set the system up, it does supply a safe track of growth for many, many people.
I was specifically referring to the statement that the system does not provide for the higher levels of human needs. They do, although for most it isn't in full capacity.
This is a great article. That said, the reason why the system sucks is because it doesn't provide for individuality, in fact, it actively campaigns against it.
Or as a friend said, there's a brand range of acceptable choices in the yeshiva world, you can specialize in niddah or nezikin or even gittin!
But if your self-fulfillment isn't learning or moneymaking, we'll, you're screwed.
A core symptom of how messed up it is is how we treat people who are frum but defy the system. Spirituality trippers, modern guys, etc are all called weirdos despite being frum. We respect the money making guy wji cheats more than the person who stays frum but defies the system. Our system is not built with the purpose of enabling closeness to Hashem, but rather the goal is to stifle creativity and individuality and disallow choice. Despite paying lip service that our system is just focused on mitzvah, observe the difference between a girl who has multiple piercings despite nothing being halachically wrong or a guy who chooses to wear shorts. Those are condemned far harsher than many halachic violation, displaying the true goal of the system.
While I agree with the value system you bring up, the fact is that a system is an outcome of what society is, it is not a machine made by one person to mess everybody up. The reason multiple piercings or shorts (I am assuming you don't mean on the basketball court) is looked at harshly is because those people usually don't keep halacha either. (Please don't get liberal on me with that statement.) The system is flawed because people are. If everyone was into personal growth on their own, the system would look a lot different. But people are lacking this because they are too weak to do it on their own, so the system looks the way it does.
The system is decentralized and isn't run by anyone.
However the societal metrics and archetypes are a result of a general attitude that is taught in yeshivos and beis Yakkovs.
Torah, specifically torah biyun, is the celebrated as the metric of accomplishment, not connecting to G-d by using your personal strengths ( which include your chelek in torah).
True, the metric of accomplishment is decided based on what society decided to idolize, and for that reason many are victims of that. If people would be society would be deeper that problem would be diminished.
Is the reason why many people are into brand name clothing and are into all the fads of society also because of what they are taught in Yeshiva? Does BMG teach you to buy a 4 year old Camry?
Same with Torah. The ones who learn the most, and have that much discipline and clear thinking usually are very devoted Jews and worthy of respect, except the Michaber Sefarim or Masmid is not giving you that Schmooze, its the Rebbi/Rosh Yeshiva, so he idolizes things differently. Why are Rabbanim not on top of the totem pole instead of Roshei Yeshiva? because they are not giving the Schmooze.
I would like to reply to this comment as to I feel that this dichotomy of centralization vs. decentralization is the greatest flaw of the system. The core issue is that the system is completely decentralized yet is viewed as centralized. For this reason people can live their entire lives just following the crowd without ever stopping to think about whether they are acting properly.
A few examples. 1. In a previous post Yosef Hirsh mentioned that yungeleit would be able to stay in Kollel much longer if they would move out of town. This is an issue that has bothered me greatly for years and I have spoken with many people about it. It seems to me that the core issue that prevents any change from happening is that people just assume that if the system is "set up" a certain way that must be the ideal. 2. The recent discussion about the shiduch crisis. It seems that the only way to have bachurim marry younger is through manipulating the system as to what age bachurim get into Bais Medrash. Can't each bais Medrash bachur just make his own personal decision about such a personal topic? It seems not, as everyone just follows the flow. 3 Our chinuch system has many flaws yet any slight change is an uphill battle, as if there is a mesorah on every mistake. Some of this may be to the general frum waryness of innovation, however I feel that I lot of it is based on the misperception that the system is centralized and preplanned.
This is true of any system. Try having a job with any large company and being "individual" on the job, like getting individually creative with the company's finances. What you are saying is that you would prefer, for example, that people shouldn't be suspicious of a girl with multiple piercings, and that regular boys should want to make a shidduch with her. This is the fast track to a quick divorce, as you know. Most of the features of the "system" that you find unpleasant actually have very good reasons.
First off, a job is something you can choose. A religion is not (especially since we believe it to be true, and thus inexpendible). Therefore, it is incumbent on us to make the system as open as possible to enable all to keep it. We obviously cannot allow issurim, but things which are perfectly ok according to the torah should have some leeway.
Second, the system is of course organic and not man-made. But from society's systems we can see what is important to it. Of course many of the systems requirements have good reasons. But they should not. For example, a boy not wearing a white shirt is because of chumra creep. Or everyone keeping chalav yisrael. It used to not be a marker, but as time went on and everyone started doin git, largely due to pressure, it became a marker of seriousness. And when that stopped working because everyone adopted it we needed a new marker. etc etc.
There must be a way to allow society to be more open. At the very least, calling attention to it may help.
I agree somewhat but mostly not. I don't think there is such a thing as chumra creep, and certainly wearing a white shirt is not a "chumra". Rather, we have a shared culture and people who deviate from the culture are viewed as...well, deviating from the culture.
It is not true that our society is more machmir than righteous societies hundreds of years ago. You might call chalav yisroel a chumra, but anybody who learns the halacha b'iyun has a hard time seeing why it's not m'ikkar hadin (and many poskim say it is m'ikkar hadin). And go through Tur Bais Yosef Bach on Hilchos Pesach and Ta'aruvos and you will see hundreds of chumras you never even dreamed of that nobody keeps anymore. When people talk about chumra creep it is usually "in 1918 we had mixed dancing and girlfriends and women didn't cover their hair", ie, amaratzim who didn't care much about halacha. A minority of people mean that it was a b'dieved situation, so we could rely on b'dieved kahrus standards, for example. Surely you know that the difference between b'dieved and l'chatchila is not a 21st century yeshivish invention.
Another important point is that Judaism is not just halacha. Judaism includes hashkafa. People deviate in the direction of goyishe culture are going against the Torah, even if they are not specifically violating halacha.
But the main thing you seem bothered by is the fact that people who deviate from the shared culture are viewed as unusual. If so, do your part to make those things not deviations (like wearing a colored shirt, or wearing Tefillin all day, and other stuff as long as it is not against Torah hashkafa or halacha). Make them popular. Be the change you want to see in the world.
That's because you are so holy, you don't care about all that superficial stuff. But for most people, it's an inevitable part of culture. We can only aspire to be so non-materialistic.
I find it interesting that Iived all my life in Lakewood and I never noticed this to be such a problem. I read much of the sefarim from the mechaber of בעצתך תנחני who deals a lot with this issue but I really felt that this was mostly an Israeli issue. Certainly immature teenagers will practice hero worship. That's part of being a teenager. But I always felt that the main tafkid of the Kollel years is to grow out of this immaturity and I thought most people do that.
That happens to be an amazing sefer. I still believe that the way to fix this is on an individual basis, since wholesale would just make another system with problems.
I guess I'll hold my full comment till part 3, but as much as I would personally enjoy things better that way, the amount of people being left out of the system and failing will not diminish. A system is a system, some need it and some can't handle it. The only question is multiple systems, if that can even be possible.
I agree with 95% but I disagree that the system doesn't [ever] supply self actualization. While I agree that many people don't fit into that mold, and 90% of people do not fit into the highest echelon of society, that top 10% owe their success in self actualization to the system, and many people who don't make it still give all the credit of their growth to the system. An even better example are people who come from less toradic backgrounds who fully soak up the system and really grow from it. The main reason a system is so important is that human nature is to have a value system based on the environment they are in, and do not possess the capability of doing it alone, or without role models. While I agree that there are many problems with how we set the system up, it does supply a safe track of growth for many, many people.
I mentioned the positive environment of the system as a pro in the previous article.
The system can provide tools to enable self actualization ( environment for an example) but it does not encourage individual skills and talents.
I was specifically referring to the statement that the system does not provide for the higher levels of human needs. They do, although for most it isn't in full capacity.
This is a great article. That said, the reason why the system sucks is because it doesn't provide for individuality, in fact, it actively campaigns against it.
Or as a friend said, there's a brand range of acceptable choices in the yeshiva world, you can specialize in niddah or nezikin or even gittin!
But if your self-fulfillment isn't learning or moneymaking, we'll, you're screwed.
A core symptom of how messed up it is is how we treat people who are frum but defy the system. Spirituality trippers, modern guys, etc are all called weirdos despite being frum. We respect the money making guy wji cheats more than the person who stays frum but defies the system. Our system is not built with the purpose of enabling closeness to Hashem, but rather the goal is to stifle creativity and individuality and disallow choice. Despite paying lip service that our system is just focused on mitzvah, observe the difference between a girl who has multiple piercings despite nothing being halachically wrong or a guy who chooses to wear shorts. Those are condemned far harsher than many halachic violation, displaying the true goal of the system.
While I agree with the value system you bring up, the fact is that a system is an outcome of what society is, it is not a machine made by one person to mess everybody up. The reason multiple piercings or shorts (I am assuming you don't mean on the basketball court) is looked at harshly is because those people usually don't keep halacha either. (Please don't get liberal on me with that statement.) The system is flawed because people are. If everyone was into personal growth on their own, the system would look a lot different. But people are lacking this because they are too weak to do it on their own, so the system looks the way it does.
Partially true.
The system is decentralized and isn't run by anyone.
However the societal metrics and archetypes are a result of a general attitude that is taught in yeshivos and beis Yakkovs.
Torah, specifically torah biyun, is the celebrated as the metric of accomplishment, not connecting to G-d by using your personal strengths ( which include your chelek in torah).
Torah is a tool to connect not an end to itself.
True, the metric of accomplishment is decided based on what society decided to idolize, and for that reason many are victims of that. If people would be society would be deeper that problem would be diminished.
Is the reason why many people are into brand name clothing and are into all the fads of society also because of what they are taught in Yeshiva? Does BMG teach you to buy a 4 year old Camry?
Same with Torah. The ones who learn the most, and have that much discipline and clear thinking usually are very devoted Jews and worthy of respect, except the Michaber Sefarim or Masmid is not giving you that Schmooze, its the Rebbi/Rosh Yeshiva, so he idolizes things differently. Why are Rabbanim not on top of the totem pole instead of Roshei Yeshiva? because they are not giving the Schmooze.
We idolize what we are taught to idolize
Yes, I just edited my comment about that.
I would like to reply to this comment as to I feel that this dichotomy of centralization vs. decentralization is the greatest flaw of the system. The core issue is that the system is completely decentralized yet is viewed as centralized. For this reason people can live their entire lives just following the crowd without ever stopping to think about whether they are acting properly.
A few examples. 1. In a previous post Yosef Hirsh mentioned that yungeleit would be able to stay in Kollel much longer if they would move out of town. This is an issue that has bothered me greatly for years and I have spoken with many people about it. It seems to me that the core issue that prevents any change from happening is that people just assume that if the system is "set up" a certain way that must be the ideal. 2. The recent discussion about the shiduch crisis. It seems that the only way to have bachurim marry younger is through manipulating the system as to what age bachurim get into Bais Medrash. Can't each bais Medrash bachur just make his own personal decision about such a personal topic? It seems not, as everyone just follows the flow. 3 Our chinuch system has many flaws yet any slight change is an uphill battle, as if there is a mesorah on every mistake. Some of this may be to the general frum waryness of innovation, however I feel that I lot of it is based on the misperception that the system is centralized and preplanned.
I would like this 10 times if I could
Stay tuned for pt. 3.....this is explicitly discussed
Great point.
Very true....I think you will like pt. 3
This is true of any system. Try having a job with any large company and being "individual" on the job, like getting individually creative with the company's finances. What you are saying is that you would prefer, for example, that people shouldn't be suspicious of a girl with multiple piercings, and that regular boys should want to make a shidduch with her. This is the fast track to a quick divorce, as you know. Most of the features of the "system" that you find unpleasant actually have very good reasons.
I partially agree with you.
There is certain amount of order needed in any system but there is a certain amount of creativity that is allowed.
An employee can use his creativity as long as he uses it to successfully accomplish the tasks required of him.
In Yiddishkeit the overall job is to serve Hashem but everyone has their own part to play.
See pt. 3
I agree with what you are saying.
First off, a job is something you can choose. A religion is not (especially since we believe it to be true, and thus inexpendible). Therefore, it is incumbent on us to make the system as open as possible to enable all to keep it. We obviously cannot allow issurim, but things which are perfectly ok according to the torah should have some leeway.
Second, the system is of course organic and not man-made. But from society's systems we can see what is important to it. Of course many of the systems requirements have good reasons. But they should not. For example, a boy not wearing a white shirt is because of chumra creep. Or everyone keeping chalav yisrael. It used to not be a marker, but as time went on and everyone started doin git, largely due to pressure, it became a marker of seriousness. And when that stopped working because everyone adopted it we needed a new marker. etc etc.
There must be a way to allow society to be more open. At the very least, calling attention to it may help.
I agree somewhat but mostly not. I don't think there is such a thing as chumra creep, and certainly wearing a white shirt is not a "chumra". Rather, we have a shared culture and people who deviate from the culture are viewed as...well, deviating from the culture.
It is not true that our society is more machmir than righteous societies hundreds of years ago. You might call chalav yisroel a chumra, but anybody who learns the halacha b'iyun has a hard time seeing why it's not m'ikkar hadin (and many poskim say it is m'ikkar hadin). And go through Tur Bais Yosef Bach on Hilchos Pesach and Ta'aruvos and you will see hundreds of chumras you never even dreamed of that nobody keeps anymore. When people talk about chumra creep it is usually "in 1918 we had mixed dancing and girlfriends and women didn't cover their hair", ie, amaratzim who didn't care much about halacha. A minority of people mean that it was a b'dieved situation, so we could rely on b'dieved kahrus standards, for example. Surely you know that the difference between b'dieved and l'chatchila is not a 21st century yeshivish invention.
Another important point is that Judaism is not just halacha. Judaism includes hashkafa. People deviate in the direction of goyishe culture are going against the Torah, even if they are not specifically violating halacha.
But the main thing you seem bothered by is the fact that people who deviate from the shared culture are viewed as unusual. If so, do your part to make those things not deviations (like wearing a colored shirt, or wearing Tefillin all day, and other stuff as long as it is not against Torah hashkafa or halacha). Make them popular. Be the change you want to see in the world.
My main issue is that the shared culture is not based on halacha but rather on superficial things.
That's because you are so holy, you don't care about all that superficial stuff. But for most people, it's an inevitable part of culture. We can only aspire to be so non-materialistic.
I find it interesting that Iived all my life in Lakewood and I never noticed this to be such a problem. I read much of the sefarim from the mechaber of בעצתך תנחני who deals a lot with this issue but I really felt that this was mostly an Israeli issue. Certainly immature teenagers will practice hero worship. That's part of being a teenager. But I always felt that the main tafkid of the Kollel years is to grow out of this immaturity and I thought most people do that.
That happens to be an amazing sefer. I still believe that the way to fix this is on an individual basis, since wholesale would just make another system with problems.
How about systemized individuality?
Stay tuned...😉
I guess I'll hold my full comment till part 3, but as much as I would personally enjoy things better that way, the amount of people being left out of the system and failing will not diminish. A system is a system, some need it and some can't handle it. The only question is multiple systems, if that can even be possible.
The hero worship ends but sub-consciously using it as a metric doesn't.
I will also say that prior generations didn't have this problem as much because learning in kollel was more of a choice that they made.