For me, my journey out began with a deeper connection to Torah itself. I came to see a dissonance between the Limmud and the practical study and application of Halacha. Years of in-depth Halachic exposed flaws in the celebrated "lomdus" that serves as the foundation of the yeshiva world. I also encountered significant gaps in knowledge and errors among even the most respected Torah scholars.
On a personal level, I was deeply dedicated to Halacha, to the point of fully embracing its weight and implications. Decisions involving severe transgressions, such as those punishable by kareis , were life-altering for me. I soon realized that living with a literal belief in the gravity of Halacha led to dysfunction. This became evident in the broader Jewish community, where Halacha is often sidelined in yeshiva curriculum and subtly disparaged as an area of emphasis. As many know, few people have a detailed understanding of laws governing tzitzit, tefillah, brachot, Shabbat, or lashon hara.
Additionally, the idea that seemingly arbitrary actions (mitzvot) could merit life-ending punishments felt untenable, and deep down I don't think anybody really believes it. My exploration of Jewish hashkafa further revealed a lack of universal agreement on many principles, with prominent thinkers often appearing to construct their ideas on the fly. Once I recognized this, I found myself needing a more compelling reason to believe in the truth of Judaism, which is very hard as the evidence against is quite formidable.
While I continue to admire the beauty of Jewish culture and the warmth of its people, these qualities alone are insufficient to foster belief or conformity.
Wow! Couldn’t have been explained better! I believe that you’ve actually gotten to the core of what has created much of this problem, the system has become a framework that doesn’t provide personal meaning. Most people dropping in to this conversation wished to point out many of the system’s consequences while possibly being true are mostly subjective to the experience of the writer expressing that point of view. However looking at the society at its own terms can allow one to see what needs to be changed.
We’ve created a default, which provides structure without fulfillment so ya if your not finding fulfillment in the basic activities offered in the system your screwed and it’s not an issue that only affects the sophisticated intellectually gifted people who question etc.
So I have actually given this issue that you bring up a lot of thought. The modern chareidi/yeshiva world has built yiddishkeit on one thing, the yeshiva system and limud HaTorah. This is consistent with Chazal's emphasis on limud Torah, but it leads to a lot of problems. In EY, where yeshiva prevents army service, this creates a dysfunctional society in which men don't contribute to the country (or are perceived as not contributing) and prevents them from getting normal jobs. In Chu"l, where men usually go to work at some point, it leads to the problems that you identify. Men who leave yeshiva feel that they have lost meaning in life.
It would seem that the solution that you call for lies in Modern Orthodoxy.-"It is a call to imbue even activities that we consider “Chol” like sleeping, eating , working and driving in insane Lakewood traffic with meaning." Isn't this what Modern Orthodoxy advocates for (on a more elite level- they want science and philosophy and literature and high culture to be imbued with Jewish meaning)? But Modern Orthodoxy is not more successful at keeping people religious, it is actually much less successful. The isolationist, Torah centered yeshiva world for all its faults has the best retention- precisely because of the feature that you identify as the problem.
So what is the solution? I don't have one. I doubt anybody has one. How precisely do you propose to imbue even activities that we consider “Chol” like sleeping, eating , working and driving in insane Lakewood traffic with meaning? Go on TorahAnytime and you will find no shortage of motivational speakers telling people why their mundane baalebatishe lives are so meaningful. But somehow, I doubt it's really hitting home. Something that does seem to make a difference is serious learning sedorim for baalebatim, in which they really feel they are growing in learning (If you email me I have more to say about this.) Another avenue of investigation is the chassidic world, which I am much less familiar with, but it seems to avoid the problem that you identify, in fact it seems designed with this in mind.
so if i understand you correctly, you agree with me on a theoretical level but you feel like its impossible to implement practical changes without messing up retention.
I am not advocating a huge overhaul in the system for that reason I just think that stressing that everyone has their own road and needs to develop their own connection to Hashem.
As of now, the message is that everyone should try to be a gadol hador, must learn iyun and only a learning person is something to strive for.
Which leaves 90% of the population feeling bidieved when they leave learning or if that particular brand of yiddishkeit doesn't resonate with them.
I think we've discussed this before, but the issue with modern Orthodoxy is their exposure to the world, not their hashkafos. Chometz Chaim manages to do it fine. There's no reason a Lakewood school couldn't reach R Aryeh Kaplan on evolution or similar while still remaining separated from the world. Instead we insist on instilling ridiculous beliefs that can be disproven, as you wisely point out, by a wikipedia article. If we can teach the hilchos of suicide don't apply because of mental illness, despite that shita maybe being 200 years old, we could do the same with other things that we now have an increased understanding of.
Part of that is Chofetz Chaim student are allowed to go to college (CCNY not just Touro). The vast majority are in accounting/finance but they get exposure to the world.
There is also no uniformity in dress, other than a suit- perhaps.
Despite that, if rigidity occurs, they will have increasing issues with OTD. This ‘concept’ of “my way or the highway” will come to bare when their BT population increases:
One of their reasons for slower growth (compared to Lakewood) is a lack of an active outreach program. Ner Israel accomplished that by breaking off - literally- to Aish (same family, but BT is big business, just ask Chabad at $750M).
I’m not sure lifting weights is an apt metaphor, and I know too many who would criticize you for that being ביטול תורה..
OTD as a psychological disorder requiring therapy? The vast majority of these people are being shunned and cast out for….religious reasons.
Chabad and Aish don’t do that. They also are not in ‘religious’ communities. One of their reasons hallmarks of these communities is their success: as soon as they bring enough BT’s back, a separate MO/ZO shul opens. There are exceptions, like the Shul in Surfside FL, but even there a huge YI opened.
Back to the original point: Chofetz Chaim, whether in Dallas, Denver, LA Valley, Phoenix or Rochester- have grown but are still small. A lot of their congregants are ‘other yeshiva’ trained who will simply wait until enough of their friends show up in order to break away themselves.
….and so it has been going for a very long time. I would like to think this is American phenomena, but I have heard it from my parent’s in their own little village in sub-Ruthenian Carpathia.
From my experience, Chofetz Chaimers that go to work feel like they are second class. Even in yeshiva if they aren’t the top learners they feel second class.
Most of CC world don't come from Heimish background. The lack of warmth in that community (which for them is fine) will not speak to these people. I respect these people but I personally find CC very rigid, and for that reason alone I would not want my kids in that system. There is no one system that solves all problems. Not withstanding Rabbi Moshe Weinbergers rant on the Yeshiva system, his system doesn't include everyone either.
>>>There is no one system that solves all problems. Not withstanding Rabbi Moshe Weinbergers rant on the Yeshiva system, his system doesn't include everyone either.
I think this this sums up the reality.
Every system has its problems.
If you feel there is what to change in your local system go ahead and do it. Otherwise, be mature and realize that any system you choose will have its benefits and drawbacks and don't live a life of complaining.
Exactly my point. It's up to you to raise your kids and give them what they need-whatever the system lacks. I you interact with people on a one on one basis, see if they can be told or given something they individually need. But no one can change the system; at least no one on this blog.
Funny you mention it, Rabbi Berkowitz is actually against justifying suicide because he feels it will validate some people on the brink and cause more deaths R"L. Basically the same point, that he feels truth is dangerous. And the balance is a matter of opinion.
Very good point. I also agree that the Yeshiva system solves the MOST problems, but can't solve the rest, which leaves too much room no matter what. I just think the one thing we can do is not pontificating that this IS Judaism, rather a way of life, which tolerates some room for individuality. Personally, I think parents should focus on giving this to their kids instead of entrusting them with the system. My parents raised me this way and I am super proud of every member of my family despite major differences we have.
Their initial efforts proved successful, but then a generation later they think that's Judaism. Foe example, people would feel guilty doing mundane acts so Rebbes would tell people to eat with their hats on because they are eating to serve Hashem. Thats really nice but today in a Chasidish Yeshiva boys get punished for not wearing their hats by lunch, and now the solution became the problem.
So, now everyone has the opportunity to jump in with their favorite quick fixes for Yiddishkeit.
Talk is cheap. What are you doing to effect change? Can you list steps that other people can do to help you?
In my opinion, there is a structural problem with our society which comes before any of this.
I will say something perhaps very controversial, but in my opinion this structural problem often goes by the name 'daas torah'.
Call it what you want, it seems almost impossible for anyone to make *any* real changes in society unless they are very well connected. And if they are, unfortunately the changes they make are of little benefit to frum society.
As you wrote elsewhere 'luxury beliefs' about what Klal Yisroel really needs.
I think this is also the root of the problem you mentioned: The Roshei Yeshiva and often the hanhala of yeshivos and kollelim are removed from the challenges of regular frum life. (Shalom Ehrenfeld does a good job talking about this on Torah Anytime.)
It seems the primary complaint the Orthoprax have about our community is about the oppression. Unfortunately, it isn't just Orthoprax who suffer from oppression וד"ל.
What is the answer?
I think the first step is probably spreading out to more communities.
We are moving completely in the wrong direction here.
I think an ideal system is one with many different communities constantly trying out new things, figuring out what works best for them.
I appreciate the thought you’ve put into this, but I strongly disagree that a "lack of personal connection to Judaism" is the issue here.
From my experience, and from others I’ve spoken to, the turning point rarely stems from a lack of connection. It often comes from confronting contradictions, hypocrisy, and the lies we’re told. We’re taught to uphold certain values and revere specific figures, but up close, it becomes clear that politics, power, and appearances usually take precedence over integrity and truth. And questioning these inconsistencies? Completely off limits. That culture of denial, where hard questions are ignored and honesty is sacrificed, is what drives many to start asking - and once those questions begin, they rarely stop.
Many of us were deeply connected at one point. What changed wasn’t the connection but the realization that the system itself is disingenuous and discourages authenticity. If you truly want to understand why people leave, you need to confront the deeper issues: the contradictions, hypocrisies, and the refusal to grapple with uncomfortable truths. From the bottom up. Not the other way around.
100%. I was extremely connected to Judaism emotionally and the system was very much working for me, and what threw me off was the lack of honest confrontation of real issues.
My two cents is that none of us can do anything about it. R' Chaim Kanievsky was asked how one can help others, and he said the solution is to fill yourself up like a cup, until the brim runs over. Everything else is hevel havalim.
Not at all. I don't think people can't be helped, but chatting about it online is in all likelihood the eitzah of the yetzer hara, a distraction. Same yetzer hara that drives to handel what Bibi should or shouldn't do. In reality, you want to help, either do it, or work on your own mitzvois and massim toivim which brings shefa - similar to the famed line from R' Yisroel Salanter about a Jew in Paris smokes on shabbos because a Jew in Vilna was lax in halacha
I am unconvinced. The issue of an inauthentic experience of Yiddishkeit and lack of leadership is writ large in the Neviim (go read first perek Yeshaya for a refresh) and it's not for nothing that a large percentage of Pirkei Avos is aimed at leaders (judges) too.
It is an artifact of our lengthy golus that these issues are magnified today. There is no long term solution apart from the geulah, so working towards that (via personal avodah) should be primary focus. Of course, at the same time, we must do our best hishtadlus on a communal level.
I'm unconvinced that 'making it the subject of public discourse' qualifies as genuine hishtadlus, anymore than the thought that if we shmoozers all agree invading Syria is best, than if we shmooze it up enough we can meme it all the way to reality, would qualify as genuine hishtadlus. And if it's not genuine hishtadlus, then it's atzas yetzer hara.
At the same time, if you know people in the situation, it's really hard to sit back and not want to do something more active. I'm in middle of writing a post highlighting my (unimportant) opinion on where this is all coming from, because that's just what we need, yet another post! ;)
Rav Yisrael said that the best favor you can do the world is make something out of yourself. He cited the Gra how he was closed up but he had a tremendous impact on those around him, who in turn inspired klal yisrael. (I know R Elya Lopian said the opposite about the Gra quoting R Yisrael but I think that was the Dubno maggid)
Anyway, R Yisrael himself was not a major public figure, and he himself accomplished a tremendous amount.
My point is, that if a few people are vocal about these values with those around them, the domino effect is much bigger than you think.
True, but still not as public as others as famous as he was. He barely lasted 3 years as a maggid shiur in a Yeshiva and was never a formal city Rav. He was not closed up but his main influence was his one on one interaction with people, not speaking in front of a thousand people or setting up policies or systems for klal yisrael (even the mussar movement in yeshivos were because of his talmidim).
Was a bigger doer than most others of his times. He preferred to run things from behind the scenes because he accomplished more that way. He was very active in setting up the kovna kolel for example. And his movement to create mussar houses for the baalebatim is a far cry from "just fix yourself". (The fact that he didn't push for it in yeshivos can be attributed to a variety of reasons). Was heavily involved in all public issues of his day. Not sure how he proves your point at all.
He was never a formal rav specifically because it would hinder him from Klal issues, which is exactly my point that relying on daas torah from formal institutions inevitably means never changing the system.
>the mussar movement in yeshivos were because of his talmidim
Right, because he trained his talmidim to be doers, and to take responsibilty even without the backing of 'daas torah' (e.g. the Alter of Kelm)
>setting up policies or systems for klal yisrael
That is an ironic comment as Reb Yisroel tried his hand at many such endeavors. The one that succeeded was he mussar movement in yeshivos were because of his talmidim as you wrote.
I am curious for the source of this and the exact context. My (Telzer) mesorah is that Reb Yisroel Salanter said that he doesn't believe in the concept of a Tzadik nistar these days. If one is truly a tzaddik he would not remain nistar when the world needs him.
My above comment to chopped liver explains the concept more. I didn't mean to stay anonymous, but the goal in life is to make something out of yourself. Of course, once you did you should get out there, but not right away like Chabad/Aish or all those other frum-2-years-now-mekarev-people.
BTW, R Elya Lopian spoke in Lakewood about your statement from R Yisrael, and added that he was directing his comment at the Gra. With that he urged the people there to start going out and doing Kiruv. Well R Ahrons next schmooze he did not play nice at that to say the least.
100%, but I wasn't talking about leaving Kollel and I didn't think that was the conversation (though perhaps I should throw in that in my opinion perhaps the greatest גורם for ביטול תורה today is that everyone is stuck in Lakewood).
For me this discussion is about attitudes. Should one's attitude be that he has an achrayus for Klal Yisroel (please insert a recording of Reb Elya Svei Zatsal) or may one just focus on oneself and assume that the 'big people' 'gedolim' 'daas torah' will magically solve all the big Klal Yisroel issues.
Ash can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Ash was advocating for increasing Orthopraxy among the OTD. The culture should be beautiful enough that even non-believers basically want to do the mitzvot.
Reasons to do those mitzvot vary tremendously from person to person and behavior to behavior.
Common reasons include appeasing family members, connection to community, familiarity to the culture, and enjoyment from specific acts. Some people believe some data that shows religious lifestyle produces happiness more often than non religious lifestyles.
Generally they don’t keep everything all the time, but even religious people don’t either. Just they might not keep things that a religious person wouldn’t dream of.
When you say you dont believe there are any, do you think the people who claim to be orthoprax like myself are lying or something else?
No, not really. My point was that if OTD people are mocking our culture when they leave, we are not doing something right. There should be some reverence for them and respect, not mocking, even if they think its not true. If there is not, our culture is being imparted wrongly.
I pretty much agree with your sentiments, but I do feel that you may be aiming a bit too had.
Yiddishkeit is tough and it is supposed to be that way. Yes, the toughness should be beautiful etc. But to expect that noone will ever feel anything but longing for it?
As I think over your points, are you addressing the cause of Orthopraxy or just OTD in general? All of the points seem to explain why people aren’t connected, not why they would still do mitzvot.
Not sure why you are not touching on the issues this narrow view of Judaism created with women and on the spiritual struggles of from women (to put it mildly).
But the issues you are describing I see in women all the time. They are less obvious because of a lack of formal “compliance” and many of it also gets viewed as “women are allowed to” by both society and the women themselves. I’ve see this used by women as reason ranging from not washing/bentching for bread and going dressed immodestly in public spaces like gyms and beaches.
Similarly, by women to I see young girls being extremely idealistic, and on average 30+ women have no connection or investments in Judaism and view their moral obligations as being outsourced by men at best, and entirely disengaged at worst. Usually with a lack of interest and belief growing the older they get and see some of the iron clad “rules” that they were once taught as increasingly stupid.
Add to that a sometimes very shallow understanding of how Halacha works, and you have many older women who simply don’t care.
Once everyone is here kvetching, I think a big problem with frum society is that everyone is forced to wear the same clothes. This takes away any feeling of individually that people would have. To feel some sense of worth, some people are resorting to ridiculous styles instead which make them look gay, as long as its black and white.
It is natural for people to want to pick out their own clothes, something that fits their temperament. Being forced to wear a uniform 24/7 can feel quite stifling. As Mark twain famously said "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society".
We need a society we're people aren't walking around naked.
You know what really would have kept me frum? If the truth claims Orthodox Judaism makes actually had evidence. Or at least, if it didn't have a multitude of evidence against it. That's the core of the problem. That it's simply not true.
I had a deep connection to yiddishkeit and a personal relationship with Hashem. My faith fell apart not due to a lack of connection but due to legitimate doubts and questions that didn't have good answers.
Why would it being not true ruin a personal relationship? If you felt something there, you essentially gaslit yourself that the feeling was false. See the thanksgiving metaphor on my post.
I wouldn't say it destroyed my relationship with Judaism overall. I still have a strong relationship with Judaism and my tradition. It just ruined my relationship with Hashem because now I don't think He exists
I don't think there is strong reason to think a personal God like Hashem exists. Fakert, there's strong reason to think he doesn't. An impersonal Prime Mover maybe but that's not Hashem - who chose the Jews and wrote a book to give them. I'd love to hear your evidence if you have any though.
I can speak from personal experience and of course the many otd guys I know who were good solid guys in yeshiva and through kollel and beyond. When I still believed I felt great connection to all aspects of judaism. I davened with kavana, I learned mussar and genuinely grew as a person through that, I learned every day and I accomplished- eventually becoming a posek. The first cracks in my faith appeared from observing rabbonim. Their behaviors made clear to me that torah does not make you a better person. Once faith is broken, there is no way that intellectual arguments will keep you believing. The intellectual arguments for the truth of judaism are weak, to say the least. Bottom line - I don't think that there is anything the frum community can really do to change this. Sheker ain lo raglayim. The torah is sheker and more adults are simply coming to that realization. Particularly the learned ones who can't be fooled anymore by what they don't know.
Ya people in nach didn't actually keep "halacha" or learn. The rabbis created a revisionist history of nach. So by nach standards im fine because I don't serve avoda zara
Not in the torah. Nor are there 39 melachos. Nor is there any concept of olam haba or gehinnom. Nor bittul torah. Nor shmiras einayim. Nor the million other things that have become judaism for the past several thousand years. These were rabbinic inventions
Correct (mostly - nidda in the torah is not how we practice it today at all). But all of the laws in the torah were given as rules to a society not as personal obligations that you're going to be judged on after you die or during your life or whatever mix of the two you manage to scrape together.
He didn't learn Nach growing up, was taught that Torah solves all problems. As a good friend of mine told me "It's not the Torah's fault you were taught wrong".
This post was written in haste without real editing. I apologize in advance if it contains spelling or grammar mistakes.
Please inform me if you find any,
thanks, Yosef
The correct spelling is axle not axel.
thanks!
Would love your feedback on the post.
For me, my journey out began with a deeper connection to Torah itself. I came to see a dissonance between the Limmud and the practical study and application of Halacha. Years of in-depth Halachic exposed flaws in the celebrated "lomdus" that serves as the foundation of the yeshiva world. I also encountered significant gaps in knowledge and errors among even the most respected Torah scholars.
On a personal level, I was deeply dedicated to Halacha, to the point of fully embracing its weight and implications. Decisions involving severe transgressions, such as those punishable by kareis , were life-altering for me. I soon realized that living with a literal belief in the gravity of Halacha led to dysfunction. This became evident in the broader Jewish community, where Halacha is often sidelined in yeshiva curriculum and subtly disparaged as an area of emphasis. As many know, few people have a detailed understanding of laws governing tzitzit, tefillah, brachot, Shabbat, or lashon hara.
Additionally, the idea that seemingly arbitrary actions (mitzvot) could merit life-ending punishments felt untenable, and deep down I don't think anybody really believes it. My exploration of Jewish hashkafa further revealed a lack of universal agreement on many principles, with prominent thinkers often appearing to construct their ideas on the fly. Once I recognized this, I found myself needing a more compelling reason to believe in the truth of Judaism, which is very hard as the evidence against is quite formidable.
While I continue to admire the beauty of Jewish culture and the warmth of its people, these qualities alone are insufficient to foster belief or conformity.
these are legitimate questions
Wow! Couldn’t have been explained better! I believe that you’ve actually gotten to the core of what has created much of this problem, the system has become a framework that doesn’t provide personal meaning. Most people dropping in to this conversation wished to point out many of the system’s consequences while possibly being true are mostly subjective to the experience of the writer expressing that point of view. However looking at the society at its own terms can allow one to see what needs to be changed.
We’ve created a default, which provides structure without fulfillment so ya if your not finding fulfillment in the basic activities offered in the system your screwed and it’s not an issue that only affects the sophisticated intellectually gifted people who question etc.
Thank you!
100%. I think this at the core of may issues that klal Yisrael face
So I have actually given this issue that you bring up a lot of thought. The modern chareidi/yeshiva world has built yiddishkeit on one thing, the yeshiva system and limud HaTorah. This is consistent with Chazal's emphasis on limud Torah, but it leads to a lot of problems. In EY, where yeshiva prevents army service, this creates a dysfunctional society in which men don't contribute to the country (or are perceived as not contributing) and prevents them from getting normal jobs. In Chu"l, where men usually go to work at some point, it leads to the problems that you identify. Men who leave yeshiva feel that they have lost meaning in life.
It would seem that the solution that you call for lies in Modern Orthodoxy.-"It is a call to imbue even activities that we consider “Chol” like sleeping, eating , working and driving in insane Lakewood traffic with meaning." Isn't this what Modern Orthodoxy advocates for (on a more elite level- they want science and philosophy and literature and high culture to be imbued with Jewish meaning)? But Modern Orthodoxy is not more successful at keeping people religious, it is actually much less successful. The isolationist, Torah centered yeshiva world for all its faults has the best retention- precisely because of the feature that you identify as the problem.
So what is the solution? I don't have one. I doubt anybody has one. How precisely do you propose to imbue even activities that we consider “Chol” like sleeping, eating , working and driving in insane Lakewood traffic with meaning? Go on TorahAnytime and you will find no shortage of motivational speakers telling people why their mundane baalebatishe lives are so meaningful. But somehow, I doubt it's really hitting home. Something that does seem to make a difference is serious learning sedorim for baalebatim, in which they really feel they are growing in learning (If you email me I have more to say about this.) Another avenue of investigation is the chassidic world, which I am much less familiar with, but it seems to avoid the problem that you identify, in fact it seems designed with this in mind.
so if i understand you correctly, you agree with me on a theoretical level but you feel like its impossible to implement practical changes without messing up retention.
I am not advocating a huge overhaul in the system for that reason I just think that stressing that everyone has their own road and needs to develop their own connection to Hashem.
As of now, the message is that everyone should try to be a gadol hador, must learn iyun and only a learning person is something to strive for.
Which leaves 90% of the population feeling bidieved when they leave learning or if that particular brand of yiddishkeit doesn't resonate with them.
Yes, precisely the problem.
I think we've discussed this before, but the issue with modern Orthodoxy is their exposure to the world, not their hashkafos. Chometz Chaim manages to do it fine. There's no reason a Lakewood school couldn't reach R Aryeh Kaplan on evolution or similar while still remaining separated from the world. Instead we insist on instilling ridiculous beliefs that can be disproven, as you wisely point out, by a wikipedia article. If we can teach the hilchos of suicide don't apply because of mental illness, despite that shita maybe being 200 years old, we could do the same with other things that we now have an increased understanding of.
I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not talking about our problem addressing science questions, but of helping non learners find meaning.
Same. Find meaning in yiddishkeit, without adding exposure to the world. Chofetz chaim does this well and has a very low OTD rate.
Part of that is Chofetz Chaim student are allowed to go to college (CCNY not just Touro). The vast majority are in accounting/finance but they get exposure to the world.
There is also no uniformity in dress, other than a suit- perhaps.
Despite that, if rigidity occurs, they will have increasing issues with OTD. This ‘concept’ of “my way or the highway” will come to bare when their BT population increases:
One of their reasons for slower growth (compared to Lakewood) is a lack of an active outreach program. Ner Israel accomplished that by breaking off - literally- to Aish (same family, but BT is big business, just ask Chabad at $750M).
I’m not sure lifting weights is an apt metaphor, and I know too many who would criticize you for that being ביטול תורה..
OTD as a psychological disorder requiring therapy? The vast majority of these people are being shunned and cast out for….religious reasons.
Chabad and Aish don’t do that. They also are not in ‘religious’ communities. One of their reasons hallmarks of these communities is their success: as soon as they bring enough BT’s back, a separate MO/ZO shul opens. There are exceptions, like the Shul in Surfside FL, but even there a huge YI opened.
Back to the original point: Chofetz Chaim, whether in Dallas, Denver, LA Valley, Phoenix or Rochester- have grown but are still small. A lot of their congregants are ‘other yeshiva’ trained who will simply wait until enough of their friends show up in order to break away themselves.
….and so it has been going for a very long time. I would like to think this is American phenomena, but I have heard it from my parent’s in their own little village in sub-Ruthenian Carpathia.
Can I ask you a similar question to that which I asked Yosef HIrsh?
Perhaps you can write a post explaining what concrete steps you are doing to change your surroundings other that talk?
Why don't you join a Chofetz Chaim community?
I just feel that talk is cheap.
PM me. I am certainly taking concrete steps.
I’m curious why you think OTD rate in Chofetz Chaim is less than more yeshivish/lakewood schools?
From my experience, Chofetz Chaimers that go to work feel like they are second class. Even in yeshiva if they aren’t the top learners they feel second class.
Most of CC world don't come from Heimish background. The lack of warmth in that community (which for them is fine) will not speak to these people. I respect these people but I personally find CC very rigid, and for that reason alone I would not want my kids in that system. There is no one system that solves all problems. Not withstanding Rabbi Moshe Weinbergers rant on the Yeshiva system, his system doesn't include everyone either.
>>>There is no one system that solves all problems. Not withstanding Rabbi Moshe Weinbergers rant on the Yeshiva system, his system doesn't include everyone either.
I think this this sums up the reality.
Every system has its problems.
If you feel there is what to change in your local system go ahead and do it. Otherwise, be mature and realize that any system you choose will have its benefits and drawbacks and don't live a life of complaining.
Exactly my point. It's up to you to raise your kids and give them what they need-whatever the system lacks. I you interact with people on a one on one basis, see if they can be told or given something they individually need. But no one can change the system; at least no one on this blog.
Funny you mention it, Rabbi Berkowitz is actually against justifying suicide because he feels it will validate some people on the brink and cause more deaths R"L. Basically the same point, that he feels truth is dangerous. And the balance is a matter of opinion.
Very good point. I also agree that the Yeshiva system solves the MOST problems, but can't solve the rest, which leaves too much room no matter what. I just think the one thing we can do is not pontificating that this IS Judaism, rather a way of life, which tolerates some room for individuality. Personally, I think parents should focus on giving this to their kids instead of entrusting them with the system. My parents raised me this way and I am super proud of every member of my family despite major differences we have.
Beautiful comment!!
The chasidim don’t have this as much. They have their cultish foolishness to replace it though.
Tbh My knowledge of their culture is not very much.
Their initial efforts proved successful, but then a generation later they think that's Judaism. Foe example, people would feel guilty doing mundane acts so Rebbes would tell people to eat with their hats on because they are eating to serve Hashem. Thats really nice but today in a Chasidish Yeshiva boys get punished for not wearing their hats by lunch, and now the solution became the problem.
So, now everyone has the opportunity to jump in with their favorite quick fixes for Yiddishkeit.
Talk is cheap. What are you doing to effect change? Can you list steps that other people can do to help you?
In my opinion, there is a structural problem with our society which comes before any of this.
I will say something perhaps very controversial, but in my opinion this structural problem often goes by the name 'daas torah'.
Call it what you want, it seems almost impossible for anyone to make *any* real changes in society unless they are very well connected. And if they are, unfortunately the changes they make are of little benefit to frum society.
As you wrote elsewhere 'luxury beliefs' about what Klal Yisroel really needs.
I think this is also the root of the problem you mentioned: The Roshei Yeshiva and often the hanhala of yeshivos and kollelim are removed from the challenges of regular frum life. (Shalom Ehrenfeld does a good job talking about this on Torah Anytime.)
It seems the primary complaint the Orthoprax have about our community is about the oppression. Unfortunately, it isn't just Orthoprax who suffer from oppression וד"ל.
What is the answer?
I think the first step is probably spreading out to more communities.
We are moving completely in the wrong direction here.
I think an ideal system is one with many different communities constantly trying out new things, figuring out what works best for them.
"So, now everyone has the opportunity to jump in with their favorite quick fixes for Yiddishkeit.
Talk is cheap. What are you doing to effect change? Can you list steps that other people can do to help you?"
As far as practical steps....That will be the next post iyh.....
you would also be surprised how much change can be done by a lot of people reading and writing about this.
The pen is mightier than the sword.
"As you wrote elsewhere 'luxury beliefs' about what Klal Yisroel really needs."
Yes this true. I don't think its malicious, everyone experiences life differently. the only way to change this is for people to speak up.
Yes this true. I don't think its malicious, everyone experiences life differently. the only way to change this is for people to speak up.
Yeah. You would probably enjoy Rabbi Ehrenfeld https://torahanytime.com/speakers/1319
Here is a list of some interesting speeches. I made this list a few months ago. Maybe I'll update it.
https://torahanytime.com/lectures/267802
https://torahanytime.com/lectures/315158
https://torahanytime.com/lectures/295106
https://torahanytime.com/lectures/314860 last 13 minutes
https://torahanytime.com/lectures/311756
https://torahanytime.com/lectures/311413
And here https://torahanytime.com/newsletters/811
I really appreciate it.
Honestly people can change themselfs and be more vocal about it. CF R Yisrael Salanter
Can you explain your reference to R Yisrael Salanter?
Because the way I see it, the attitude that 'being vocal' is worth something is part of the problem.
I explained myself more below in a comment to פלוניוס אלמוניוס
I appreciate the thought you’ve put into this, but I strongly disagree that a "lack of personal connection to Judaism" is the issue here.
From my experience, and from others I’ve spoken to, the turning point rarely stems from a lack of connection. It often comes from confronting contradictions, hypocrisy, and the lies we’re told. We’re taught to uphold certain values and revere specific figures, but up close, it becomes clear that politics, power, and appearances usually take precedence over integrity and truth. And questioning these inconsistencies? Completely off limits. That culture of denial, where hard questions are ignored and honesty is sacrificed, is what drives many to start asking - and once those questions begin, they rarely stop.
Many of us were deeply connected at one point. What changed wasn’t the connection but the realization that the system itself is disingenuous and discourages authenticity. If you truly want to understand why people leave, you need to confront the deeper issues: the contradictions, hypocrisies, and the refusal to grapple with uncomfortable truths. From the bottom up. Not the other way around.
Thanks for reading!
not sure if this is the medium but i would love examples of this. Guess I'll dm...
100%. I was extremely connected to Judaism emotionally and the system was very much working for me, and what threw me off was the lack of honest confrontation of real issues.
My two cents is that none of us can do anything about it. R' Chaim Kanievsky was asked how one can help others, and he said the solution is to fill yourself up like a cup, until the brim runs over. Everything else is hevel havalim.
A bit black pilled don't you think?
Not at all. I don't think people can't be helped, but chatting about it online is in all likelihood the eitzah of the yetzer hara, a distraction. Same yetzer hara that drives to handel what Bibi should or shouldn't do. In reality, you want to help, either do it, or work on your own mitzvois and massim toivim which brings shefa - similar to the famed line from R' Yisroel Salanter about a Jew in Paris smokes on shabbos because a Jew in Vilna was lax in halacha
I think we can do both and I think that making it the subject of public discourse can go a long way in making change...
I am unconvinced. The issue of an inauthentic experience of Yiddishkeit and lack of leadership is writ large in the Neviim (go read first perek Yeshaya for a refresh) and it's not for nothing that a large percentage of Pirkei Avos is aimed at leaders (judges) too.
It is an artifact of our lengthy golus that these issues are magnified today. There is no long term solution apart from the geulah, so working towards that (via personal avodah) should be primary focus. Of course, at the same time, we must do our best hishtadlus on a communal level.
I'm unconvinced that 'making it the subject of public discourse' qualifies as genuine hishtadlus, anymore than the thought that if we shmoozers all agree invading Syria is best, than if we shmooze it up enough we can meme it all the way to reality, would qualify as genuine hishtadlus. And if it's not genuine hishtadlus, then it's atzas yetzer hara.
I disagree but fair points.
I happen to like this comment a lot!
At the same time, if you know people in the situation, it's really hard to sit back and not want to do something more active. I'm in middle of writing a post highlighting my (unimportant) opinion on where this is all coming from, because that's just what we need, yet another post! ;)
can't wait to read it!
R Yisrael salanter said that about the GRa. Look what he accomplished
What specifically did he say about the Gra? And who accomplished what?
Rav Yisrael said that the best favor you can do the world is make something out of yourself. He cited the Gra how he was closed up but he had a tremendous impact on those around him, who in turn inspired klal yisrael. (I know R Elya Lopian said the opposite about the Gra quoting R Yisrael but I think that was the Dubno maggid)
Anyway, R Yisrael himself was not a major public figure, and he himself accomplished a tremendous amount.
My point is, that if a few people are vocal about these values with those around them, the domino effect is much bigger than you think.
Nu, I think this is in accordance with what I said.
Indeed, but more nuanced in a way I think Yosef will agree.
Reb Yisroel was a very public figure, extremely active in askonus and kiruv. Very very different from the Gra.
True, but still not as public as others as famous as he was. He barely lasted 3 years as a maggid shiur in a Yeshiva and was never a formal city Rav. He was not closed up but his main influence was his one on one interaction with people, not speaking in front of a thousand people or setting up policies or systems for klal yisrael (even the mussar movement in yeshivos were because of his talmidim).
Was a bigger doer than most others of his times. He preferred to run things from behind the scenes because he accomplished more that way. He was very active in setting up the kovna kolel for example. And his movement to create mussar houses for the baalebatim is a far cry from "just fix yourself". (The fact that he didn't push for it in yeshivos can be attributed to a variety of reasons). Was heavily involved in all public issues of his day. Not sure how he proves your point at all.
He was never a formal rav specifically because it would hinder him from Klal issues, which is exactly my point that relying on daas torah from formal institutions inevitably means never changing the system.
>the mussar movement in yeshivos were because of his talmidim
Right, because he trained his talmidim to be doers, and to take responsibilty even without the backing of 'daas torah' (e.g. the Alter of Kelm)
>setting up policies or systems for klal yisrael
That is an ironic comment as Reb Yisroel tried his hand at many such endeavors. The one that succeeded was he mussar movement in yeshivos were because of his talmidim as you wrote.
I am curious for the source of this and the exact context. My (Telzer) mesorah is that Reb Yisroel Salanter said that he doesn't believe in the concept of a Tzadik nistar these days. If one is truly a tzaddik he would not remain nistar when the world needs him.
My above comment to chopped liver explains the concept more. I didn't mean to stay anonymous, but the goal in life is to make something out of yourself. Of course, once you did you should get out there, but not right away like Chabad/Aish or all those other frum-2-years-now-mekarev-people.
BTW, R Elya Lopian spoke in Lakewood about your statement from R Yisrael, and added that he was directing his comment at the Gra. With that he urged the people there to start going out and doing Kiruv. Well R Ahrons next schmooze he did not play nice at that to say the least.
100%, but I wasn't talking about leaving Kollel and I didn't think that was the conversation (though perhaps I should throw in that in my opinion perhaps the greatest גורם for ביטול תורה today is that everyone is stuck in Lakewood).
For me this discussion is about attitudes. Should one's attitude be that he has an achrayus for Klal Yisroel (please insert a recording of Reb Elya Svei Zatsal) or may one just focus on oneself and assume that the 'big people' 'gedolim' 'daas torah' will magically solve all the big Klal Yisroel issues.
Great piece - I am glad to read it.
Thank you!
I’m assuming your take is based on your intuitions and not research data, right?
Personal experiences not data...I am not a scientist..I am connecting dots.
Ash can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Ash was advocating for increasing Orthopraxy among the OTD. The culture should be beautiful enough that even non-believers basically want to do the mitzvot.
He is writing another post to clarify his original one. I don't want to speak for him
Yeah. When I read the original one, I did not take it like the ones who misunderstood him did. And he agreed with my summary in his comments.
I told you many times he needs to work on this
Why would someone want to keep to strict rules even in private if they believe it is only a cultural thing?
If you're in the airport without food, why would you buy chips if you can buy real food?
Why would you inconvenience yourself to go wash on the plane?
There are hundreds of other examples. One has to be quite committed to keep everything.
Honestly, I don't believe there are any real orthroprax Jews.
Reasons to do those mitzvot vary tremendously from person to person and behavior to behavior.
Common reasons include appeasing family members, connection to community, familiarity to the culture, and enjoyment from specific acts. Some people believe some data that shows religious lifestyle produces happiness more often than non religious lifestyles.
Generally they don’t keep everything all the time, but even religious people don’t either. Just they might not keep things that a religious person wouldn’t dream of.
When you say you dont believe there are any, do you think the people who claim to be orthoprax like myself are lying or something else?
No, not really. My point was that if OTD people are mocking our culture when they leave, we are not doing something right. There should be some reverence for them and respect, not mocking, even if they think its not true. If there is not, our culture is being imparted wrongly.
Right. You were hoping that OTDers would feel more connected to the Mitzvot even after non-belief. Is that different than what you’re saying?
Yes, not that they would keep them fully, but certainly not feel anything but longing.
>certainly not feel anything but longing
I pretty much agree with your sentiments, but I do feel that you may be aiming a bit too had.
Yiddishkeit is tough and it is supposed to be that way. Yes, the toughness should be beautiful etc. But to expect that noone will ever feel anything but longing for it?
Sounds a bit like fantasy to me.
As I think over your points, are you addressing the cause of Orthopraxy or just OTD in general? All of the points seem to explain why people aren’t connected, not why they would still do mitzvot.
OTD in general.
Not sure why you are not touching on the issues this narrow view of Judaism created with women and on the spiritual struggles of from women (to put it mildly).
But the issues you are describing I see in women all the time. They are less obvious because of a lack of formal “compliance” and many of it also gets viewed as “women are allowed to” by both society and the women themselves. I’ve see this used by women as reason ranging from not washing/bentching for bread and going dressed immodestly in public spaces like gyms and beaches.
Similarly, by women to I see young girls being extremely idealistic, and on average 30+ women have no connection or investments in Judaism and view their moral obligations as being outsourced by men at best, and entirely disengaged at worst. Usually with a lack of interest and belief growing the older they get and see some of the iron clad “rules” that they were once taught as increasingly stupid.
Add to that a sometimes very shallow understanding of how Halacha works, and you have many older women who simply don’t care.
I hear what you are saying. I am a man and was writing from the male perspective
Once everyone is here kvetching, I think a big problem with frum society is that everyone is forced to wear the same clothes. This takes away any feeling of individually that people would have. To feel some sense of worth, some people are resorting to ridiculous styles instead which make them look gay, as long as its black and white.
It is natural for people to want to pick out their own clothes, something that fits their temperament. Being forced to wear a uniform 24/7 can feel quite stifling. As Mark twain famously said "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society".
We need a society we're people aren't walking around naked.
You know what really would have kept me frum? If the truth claims Orthodox Judaism makes actually had evidence. Or at least, if it didn't have a multitude of evidence against it. That's the core of the problem. That it's simply not true.
I had a deep connection to yiddishkeit and a personal relationship with Hashem. My faith fell apart not due to a lack of connection but due to legitimate doubts and questions that didn't have good answers.
Why would it being not true ruin a personal relationship? If you felt something there, you essentially gaslit yourself that the feeling was false. See the thanksgiving metaphor on my post.
I wouldn't say it destroyed my relationship with Judaism overall. I still have a strong relationship with Judaism and my tradition. It just ruined my relationship with Hashem because now I don't think He exists
Why? There's very strong reason to believe God exists. You are deluding yourself.
I don't think there is strong reason to think a personal God like Hashem exists. Fakert, there's strong reason to think he doesn't. An impersonal Prime Mover maybe but that's not Hashem - who chose the Jews and wrote a book to give them. I'd love to hear your evidence if you have any though.
I can speak from personal experience and of course the many otd guys I know who were good solid guys in yeshiva and through kollel and beyond. When I still believed I felt great connection to all aspects of judaism. I davened with kavana, I learned mussar and genuinely grew as a person through that, I learned every day and I accomplished- eventually becoming a posek. The first cracks in my faith appeared from observing rabbonim. Their behaviors made clear to me that torah does not make you a better person. Once faith is broken, there is no way that intellectual arguments will keep you believing. The intellectual arguments for the truth of judaism are weak, to say the least. Bottom line - I don't think that there is anything the frum community can really do to change this. Sheker ain lo raglayim. The torah is sheker and more adults are simply coming to that realization. Particularly the learned ones who can't be fooled anymore by what they don't know.
Haven't Jewish leaders always been imperfect ?
Nach is replete with that
Ya people in nach didn't actually keep "halacha" or learn. The rabbis created a revisionist history of nach. So by nach standards im fine because I don't serve avoda zara
There are 613 mitzvos tho...
Not in the torah. Nor are there 39 melachos. Nor is there any concept of olam haba or gehinnom. Nor bittul torah. Nor shmiras einayim. Nor the million other things that have become judaism for the past several thousand years. These were rabbinic inventions
There are quite a few tho...nidda,pork..
Correct (mostly - nidda in the torah is not how we practice it today at all). But all of the laws in the torah were given as rules to a society not as personal obligations that you're going to be judged on after you die or during your life or whatever mix of the two you manage to scrape together.
Got it.
He didn't learn Nach growing up, was taught that Torah solves all problems. As a good friend of mine told me "It's not the Torah's fault you were taught wrong".